Rhode Island’’s approach was touted for including so-called social equity elements to help people hurt by the war on drugs. Three years later, though, the state has yet to move ahead with issuing licenses for 24 new pot shops. There are also questions about the effect of legalizing recreational marijuana. So what does a key state official have to say about driving while stoned? When will Rhode Island actually move ahead with awarding licenses for new pot shops? And will the state’s legalization law really live up to the billing about promoting social equity? This week on Political Roundtable, I’m going in-depth with Kim Ahern, chairwoman of the state Cannabis Control Commission.

TRANSCRIPT

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Ian Donnis: Starting off a basic question, why does your commission use the word cannabis rather than marijuana? 

Kim Ahern: It’s a good question. It’s the statutory term that was included in the Rhode Island Cannabis Act. The term “marijuana” has a long and loaded history dating back, well before my time here and well before the Cannabis Act was passed. But several entities including the Department of Health and some stakeholders that have joined us have told us that words matter and words that have long and potentially negative connotations we should reframe and it is the appropriate medical term. So we use cannabis 

Donnis: In January, the Cannabis Control Commission released its long awaited rules and regulations. The big question is, when will the commission open the window for applications for 24 new cannabis retailers to be licensed? What would you say the answer is? 

Ahern: That is the big question. Let me take a little bit of a step back. My first time here and I’m thrilled to be here to talk a little bit about my role as chair, the inaugural chair of the Cannabis Control Commission. From the beginning I have said, and I’ve said repeatedly at meetings and general assembly hearings and also at our open forums that my goal is to regulate. the adult-use cannabis market in a way that is safe, transparent, and equitable. And I think every policy decision that we’ve made, we’ve attempted to do just that and keep those pillars in mind. And so to segue to what you just asked, we’ve been working really around the clock, especially in the last calendar year of 2024 to do a number of things that are required of us in the statutory mandates. Part of which was writing and developing our first set of adult use cannabis regulations, which you just referred to. Very proud of the work, our staff and commission did on that. And I also do wanna thank my fellow commissioners who are not here today, but I’m part of a three person commission. So Commissioner Oduyingbo and Commissioner Jacquard are key and integral members of that as well. And so we released our first set of adult use regulations in January, first week of January of this year. We received a tremendous amount of public feedback and comment. and by that I mean 381 unique comments. For anyone that doesn’t follow everyday regulatory updates in the state, that is a vast amount. It’s I believe the most that any individual topic has received in the past few years. 

Donnis: I’m sorry to interrupt. We’ve got a lot of ground to cover. So I’ve gotta cut to the chase a little bit. What can you tell us when that window for applications will open? 

Ahern: As soon as the commission’s able to finalize our regulations, which is my top priority shortly thereafter, it is our goal and our intent to open up the application window for all licensees in the state. 

Donnis: Do you expect that to be this year?

Ahern: I do.

Donnis: And it was almost three years ago when Governor McKee signed the marijuana or the cannabis legalization bill into law. Why has it taken so long to get to this point where it’s taken long to open the window for applications?

Ahern: I think first and foremost one, we already had a pretty well regulated medical market, which is not the case for all adult use states. And so one thing that is I think special about the Rhode Island Cannabis Act is that it grandfathered in the medical compassion centers to be able to sell adult use right away, almost right away. In December of ‘22. You referenced Governor McKee signing it in the summer of ‘22. It wasn’t until another calendar year basically that we were formed as a commission nominated and approved. So really we’re talking 2023 onward. We didn’t hire our key staff and be able to meet in full really until 2024. If you benchmark us against several other regulatory states that are similar, and there’s experts that have studied this cannabis policy and economic experts. They do give a window of time of establishing a first ever adult use market between 18 and 24 months. So in Rhode Island, I’m proud of the work we’ve done. We are working around the clock to get our regs done, to get applications open and for future licensees. But I will say it’s important to keep that holistic context in mind when we’re talking about the timeline. 

Donnis: The state’s legalization law calls for six new so-called social equity applicants and six new worker-owned cooperatives to be among the 24 new pot shops. How will those be selected? 

Ahern: Yes. So of all the licenses that we will eventually give out in retail licensing, I should say specifically whether talking retail, social equity, or workers’ cooperatives, that’s another thing that our commission did in 2024. We studied the best way to distribute licenses, and this is not an apples to apples comparison across states. Every state’s regulatory schemes are very different. Just comparing Massachusetts to us, Massachusetts essentially has the unlimited license model where shops have popped up and closed very frequently and very closely to our borders. You already alluded to it. We only have a limited number of licenses to give out, and so the way we will do that is a basically a hybrid randomization model. So making sure that applicants come to us ready to go. You’ve demonstrated, you have zoning, you have a shop, you have the funding, you’re able to actually open your doors. And then from there, if we receive more applications than licenses, then we will go into a lottery model.

Donnis: The idea behind social equity is making up for some of the harm of the war on drugs in which people of color were disproportionately affected. At the same time, I think there are some people who wonder if the reality will live up to the billing on that. Because it takes millions of dollars to stand up a pot shop. And because social equity shops can be 49% owned by a non-social equity person or group. What do you say to that? Will rich well-to-do investors really be able to be the ones who significantly benefit from the social equity process?

Ahern: It’s a great question. It’s something we’ve looked at closely.

Certainly we have concerns of what we’ve seen in other states, what you just alluded to. I will say, to take a huge step back, you just referred to it social equity cannabis licensing. What does that mean? It means applicants who have been disproportionately impacted by the criminal enforcement of marijuana laws, and so that includes individuals convicted of nonviolent marijuana offenses. Immediate family members and those that have lived in these kind of disproportionately impacted areas in our state. And so that’s the heart of what we were trying to accomplish. I mean, I think it’s worth noting that in this short window of time, since we’ve legalized medical to now that this is a consequential sea change of policy in our state, perhaps one of the greatest policy shifts that I’ve seen in the sense of a very short time ago, this was federally illegal, this was state-based illegal. And now it is no longer state-based elicit and in fact it’s very much regulated and taxed. And so you alluded to the fact that it’s kind of hard for social equity applicants. So we’ve been working across different states to find out what are those challenges. The General Assembly also recognized that and included in our act some funding to go along with. That the Social Equity Assistance fund, we’ve been reticent to tap into those funds. In fact, we’ve spent zero of them because we want most of them to go directly to those individuals that are most closely connected to what you’re referring to so that we can help get them off on the right foot, so to speak.

Donnis: We’re talking here with Kim Ahern, chairwoman of Rhode Island’s Cannabis Control Commission, and Kim, back in 2022, the amount of state revenue from legalized marijuana was expected to grow to $7 million by the current fiscal year. How does that match up with what has actually happened?

Ahern: Yeah, so we closely track the data that is publicly available on the website, the Office of Cannabis Regulation, if anybody’s listening at home. It’s live, real updates of sales in Rhode Island and we look at that closely and work with our partners at Department of Revenue. I will say, if you look at the projections over the past few years, we’ve met the projections of what was expected. The question will be going forward if we will continue to do that and that’s certainly our hope. We know that there’s some real economic benefits for the state, and in fact, that’s one of the reasons of many I think that we legalized in 2022. And so we will continue to keep a close eye on the data here. 

Donnis: The legalization of cannabis in Rhode Island reflects a broader decriminalization of cannabis, at the same time, there are some people who still feel this is a negative thing, like former Rhode Island Congressman Patrick Kennedy, he’s been very outspoken in criticizing cannabis. You’re a mom, you have three young kids. Would you feel okay when they turned 21 with the idea of them using cannabis? 

Ahern: It’s a good question. And I appreciate that you referred to that I’m a parent. It’s something that I talk about publicly at commission meetings, at hearings, at general assembly hearings, so do my fellow commissioners. When all three of us were confirmed, we independently brought that up, that as regulators, it’s our job to actually not remove ourselves from our individual backgrounds. And being a parent is certainly important part of mine. And so I think there’s still a lot of unknowns. Right. And that’s why it’s important for us to dialogue with our counterparts at the Rhode Island Department of Health. At URI. URI School of Pharmacy has a whole studies and cannabis studies and several of those individuals actually sit on a cannabis advisory board that advises us. It’s a 19 person stakeholder body, and they advise us on some of these issues. And so I think there’s a few things going on here. One, the lack of federal regulation. In fact, the fact that it’s outright prohibition is a great detriment to this research, right? We don’t have the necessary research to really inform the uses to inform how addictive they are to inform any of those things. And I should say, I’m not a doctor, right? I’m not a scientist. I’m a lawyer by trade. And so that’s why it’s so important to talk to those individuals, and we do, and we hear from them at meetings, and I think it’s something that needs to be closely watched and studied.

Donnis: A recent report by AAA found that 53% of respondents reported using marijuana within an hour before driving. Does this show that too many stone drivers are out there on the roads? 

Ahern: Yeah, it’s certainly troubling. That’s a troubling statistic. We are working closely with our counterparts at public safety and the Department of Health to roll out some messaging and increased awareness around these campaigns. Don’t drive high, don’t drive drunk. And I think we need to continue to share that message at the highest level that you need to have a safe option for going home. If you’re using in any capacity. 

Donnis: You seem to be a true believer in government, you’ve worked for the Attorney General’s office in Rodan and two governors before becoming chair of the Cannabis Control Commission. Why do you think it’s taken the federal government so long to walk away from the war on drugs? 

Ahern: I am a true believer in state government and I’ve served in various capacities across different entities. It’s a great question. It’s one that we think about often at the commission level. I think it’s important to note that it is federally illegal or prohibited currently. And so because of that we’re lacking a lot of well, federal research and federal studies behind cannabis use. And so that’s why it’s important for us to dialogue with our partners on the state level at the Department of Health at University of Rhode Island, they have a specific cannabis studies undergraduate program where we really do study and work with them to understand kind of the effects of cannabis use and also different policies that we may implement at the commission level.

Donnis: I am gonna close with a politics question for you. As I said, you did formally work in the Attorney General’s office. Do you have any interest in running for Attorney General next year? 

Ahern: Oh wow. Well I was not expecting that on my cannabis notes but I appreciate the question. I’ll say I loved my time as a prosecutor at the Attorney General’s office. I worked under three different attorneys general as a criminal prosecutor and a very variety of capacities. But I will say my focus currently is what we’ve just been talking about, which is really leading the Cannabis Control commission, working on a regulatory structure that hopefully makes sense and can guide the industry in the years to come.

Donnis: So not ruling it out. 

Ahern: It’s still a lot I think to take, to think about. 

Donnis: Alright, we’ve gotta leave it there. Thank you for joining us so much. Kim Aern, chairwoman of Rhode Island’s Cannabis Control Commission. 

Ahern: Thank you.

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Governor Dan McKee is facing a backlash for proposing raises for some of the department heads in state government. The total amount of the pay hikes is less than $90,000 — a drop in the bucket in the context of a $14 billion state budget. But critics say the optics are bad. You can read more about that in my Friday TGIF politics column posting around 4 this afternoon on X, Bluesky, Threads, Facebook, and at thepublicsradio.org/TGIF.

That’s it for our show. Political Roundtable is a production of The Public’s Radio. Our producers this week are Mareva Lindo and James Baumgartner. Our editor this week is Alex Nunes. I’m Ian Donnis, and I’ll see you on the radio.