Studio talk with DW’s Neil King, Kathleen Schuster, Sam Baker and Charli Shield.

Transcript: 

Neil: Welcome to Living Planet. I’m Neil King. 

Kathleen:  And I’m Kathleen Schuster. 

Neil: And today, we’re pulling back the curtain on a brand-new Living Planet mini-series that tackles one of the biggest questions of our time. What is the true cost of climate change? 

Kathleen: From extreme weather wiping out entire communities to the hidden economic toll of a warming planet, climate change isn’t just an environmental issue. It’s a financial, social and political one. 

And that’s exactly what our colleagues Sam Baker and Charli Shield have been investigating in their new five-part series. 

Neil: So, today we’re sitting down with Sam and Charli to find out what they discovered, why these stories matter and why you won’t want to miss this series.  

Sam is with us in the studio here in Bonn, Germany right now. But Charli’s in Australia. Hey, Sam. Hey, Charli. 

Sam: Hi there. 

Charli: Hello. 

Neil: Sam, could you perhaps explain what does this series do differently, and why did you decide to do it now? 

Sam: Yeah, well, Charli and I have both been reporting on environmental issues for a long time and I think you know, we’ll incorporate costs on specific issues or specific topics, but I’ve never had a chance to really look at the whole picture of how much climate change is going to cost in terms of damages and also in terms of the things we need to do to slow down and eventually stop climate change, like transitioning our energy sector.  

So, we wanted to take a really big picture, look at that, but then also zoom in on some of the human cost, some of the more relatable cost, so I guess approaching climate from an economic perspective was something that we haven’t seen a lot in other climate reporting and wanted to have a go at. 

Kathleen: You spoke with people who’ve directly been affected by climate change. Was there one particular story that stuck with you? 

Sam: Yeah, there were quite a few stories that stuck with me, so one interview I had was with a couple of retirees who have had to kind of rethink their retirement … 

Kathleen: In Florida?  

Sam: In Florida, because of hurricanes and extreme weather getting worse. So, they had lived on the coast, but just experienced a terrible hurricane. And we’re reflecting on do we stay here? Do we go somewhere else? Is it safe here? You know, our retirement is going to look completely different than we thought it would, and having to grapple with that.  

So, that one’s really stuck with me and I think is something that people in a lot of parts of the world are asking themselves if it makes sense to stay in places that are more affected by climate change. 

Kathleen: Yeah, I was really excited to see that you guys had started with Florida as like kind of ground zero for this question of you know, “How much does the storm cost?”, “How much does a hurricane cost?”, because I think their hurricanes are so much a part of people’s lives. And that will really resonate with people across the world who might live in regions where there is similar extreme weather where you, maybe over  decades, don’t even really notice that the conditions are changing. It’s not what you used to know, it’s something that’s becoming more and more serious and costing more and more money. 

Sam: Yeah, absolutely. And those costs have really risen in recent years and continue to rise, not just in Florida, but all over. 

Neil: Before we talk about this cost, I would like to bring in Charli here because Charli also did some reporting on the ground in Australia. Charli, what about you, the people that you spoke to, was there any story that stuck out for you or any person that sort of really resonated with you? 

Charli: Yeah, certainly. I mean, I met a farmer working in southeastern Queensland who runs sheep, cattle and goat on his 11,000 acre property there and five years ago, 2018-2019, they lost everything because of a prolonged drought, prolonged heat wave. It’s actually quite a cool climate there. They experience multiple days over 40 Celsius. 

There were animals dropping dead out of trees, and yeah, the ground was just littered with dead animals and he told me that that was definitely the most extreme drought they’ve ever experienced on that farm. And his family have been there for generations, more than 100 years. 

Neil: Wow. Can you perhaps tell us a little bit more on how he’s dealing with that now, a bit of a teaser?  Because he features prominently in one of your episodes, right?  

Charli: Yeah, I mean, he’s done a lot of work around the farm to try and make sure that they will never suffer in the same way when they inevitably encounter extreme weather events like drought again in the future. 

Brent Finlay: Every drought is different. The ’18, ’19, ’20 drought, the defining moment for me, looking back now was February ’19, when we had four days over 40C and we never had days over 40 in this country and we had days and now we’re in the 40C, 42C after those four days, it was different. 

Neil: Sam, earlier you touched upon the finance aspect of things, could perhaps elaborate just a little bit. What are some of the less obvious financial consequences of climate change that most people don’t really think about? 

Sam: Well, one thing we’ve seen recently with wildfires in California, for example, is how people are losing insurance. 

There’s been some reporting on this, but I think it is a news story that is just at the beginning of kind of breaking and there’s going to be more and more coming out about this over the coming years. 

I spoke with Amy Bach from United Policyholders, which is a consumer advocacy group for people who have insurance. And she told me this is really one of the areas that is most aware of climate change and justice, what’s coming. 

Amy Bach: I often say that the insurance sector, the the property casualty insurance sector, was one of the first economic powerhouses to really recognize climate change and actually start adapting their business operations in anticipation of the changes that climate change is going to bring about that would impact their bottom line and their business operations. 

Sam: I think this is just one example of the economic consequences that are happening now starting to happen, but again, it’s really the beginning of what’s going to continue unfolding. 

Kathleen: I’m really curious to hear from our listeners when this episode drops whether this is happening in other countries too, because this is the first episode, it focuses on the US and I think you know both of us from the States we’re familiar with this as well, but it will be interesting to hear if other people can give anecdotes of where they see their insurance potentially going up, because these disasters are happening everywhere. 

Neil: And also remapping entire regions, which is what happened in Germany as well. After the Ahrtal flooding that certain regions suddenly became high risk areas. And that just drives the cost through the roof. Anybody wants to insure their house and it can be quite disastrous. 

Yeah, but, a lot of interesting aspects there, fascinating. I was also wondering, you know, as reporters, you know, going out on the ground and delving really deep into these stories, was there any particular moment in your reporting where, you know, you really stopped and it made you think because you sort of, you hadn’t expected that or it was really surprising moment? 

Sam: One was when I was also in Florida speaking to Martina Spolinii, who runs an organization there that helps people kind of rehab their homes, to be more up to date with hurricane standards and she shared that for every dollar they spent on updating a home, it was going to save $6 post-hurricane or post-tropical storm. So it’s a small number, but I think it puts into perspective that doing things on climate now is going to save us a lot more money in the long run. 

I think this was the main reason we were interested in doing this series, or at least I was, is that we hear so often these political debate of, “This is going to cost too much, people can’t possibly afford this,” and I always just want to ask those prominent figures or politicians, “How much is it going to cost if we don’t do that?”  

And I think that question does not get asked enough. Instead, it’s kind of focused on this present moment debate and we’re not thinking about, you know, “How much is it going to cost me in 25 years to deal with this issue if we don’t deal with it now?” 

I think that put that into perspective. I don’t know, Charlie, maybe has some others. 

Charli: I have one other moment that really stuck out to me, which was when I met this farmer, Brent Finlay on the farm in southeastern Queensland, East Australia. 

And I spoke to him at length about this really severe, powerful and painful experience that he’d had with climate change. A really direct impact, it seemed. It really brought into sharp focus for me just how important the economics of this is. That’s what’s motivating a lot of people. “How much does it cost?”, “ ow will it affect cost of living and their economic security?” 

Sam:  And I think that’s something we see across the world, right in different countries every time an election comes up, climate might be in people’s top five or top 10 issues. It’s usually not the top one, but the top one is the economy. So, if people are making decisions about these things. 

I think it’s as important for them to be informed about the economic consequences of climate change as the economic consequences of anything else, if that’s the main issue that they’re voting on or they’re thinking about when they go to the store or thinking about when they’re updating their home. 

Neil: The economics things very important, but I think just also in general what Sam just said, the fact that you know you have these surveys and it’s always like has been in the top 10 or very far up climate change. But I mean from my understanding it seems to be dropping down again now which would also explain why it’s important to do this series now. 

Kathleen: Yeah, there’s a huge political disconnect. Yeah. And. And also a lot of attacks on politicians who do try to bring attention to exactly these issues because they’re very inconvenient. 

Sam: Yeah. So that’s actually a perfect segue. So yeah, I think this political question is a big one that popped up because, you know as much as you talk to economists and they like to think of things in this very clear cut, economic way, there’s always other forces in our in our day-to-day life and in our society and I think politics is a big one.  

So, for the third episode in our series about, “How much does it take to reduce emissions?”, I spoke to the former minister of environment and climate change from Canada, who actually was able to get through carbon pricing system in Canada. That has just been partially revoked by the new prime minister. 

And we had a discussion about just how divisive these things can be and how hard it can be to even get these policies in place to deal with climate change. And so I think this is all wrapped up in politics. Here’s the clip from her. 

Catherine McKenna: As I say to my kids, all time: Life is about choices, you’re going to have to make a decision. And so in this case, what are different ways we can use to reduce emissions that also aren’t massively expensive to taxpayers, but they’re going to have an impact? And you know, where should we be investing?  

And I think people are reasonable, you would be able to get to some consensus of probably on a consumer price, but as well as you know like free heat pumps if you’re low income or something like people are smart. 

The challenge is that climate is a complex policy. And it’s harder to understand the costs because sometimes they’re far out. Although people increasingly are very aware and very worried about the cost right now, including to like their ability to get insurance or you know, the cost of extreme weather. 

Sam: So yeah, I think this is something that governments, voters are dealing with around the world and I think this is the conversation we need to be having about climate right now. How do we deal with it? How do we pay for it? I think, unfortunately, especially in some countries, we’re still stuck in a conversation about if climate change is caused by fossil fuel emissions, which we know it is, and if we don’t get caught up in where the conversation needs to be right now, we’re going to be in a whole world of hurt in the coming decades. 

Kathleen: Yeah, Charlie, what’s one thing that you hope the listeners will take away from this series?  

Charli: Well, from the economists and the financial strategists that I’ve spoken to so far, it seems abundantly clear that this is the cheaper option to deal with climate change, to transition to a renewable energy system. It will cost money along the way, but they are very confident that we can afford this. It’s just a matter of how, and will we pay for it?  

Kathleen: Well, Sam and Charlie, you’ve already given us a lot to think about and we really can’t wait to hear your series on the true cost of climate change. So thanks for stopping by. 

Neil: Thank you very much. 

Sam: Thanks for having us.  

Charli: Thank you. 

Kathleen: The first episode of our New Five part series on the cost of climate change drops next Friday, April 18th. We’d also love to hear your thoughts as each episode comes out. You can reach us at livingplanet@dw.com or drop a comment in the comment section on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to Living Planet.  Living Planet is produced by DW in Bonn, Germany.